In Conversation with Klara Hascakova
On systems theory, relational intelligence, looping patterns, intentional life design, and going batshit in spiritual circles
The thing about having a background as a Cirque du Soleil acrobat is that it absolutely drenches conversations for the next 15-30 minutes whenever it comes up at social gatherings—or at least as long as it takes for someone with a quirkier résumé to swoop in and save you. Klara is that person.
Whipsmart, with a degree in philosophy, film, and aesthetics from Oxford, Klara has this aura of elevated mystique which is swiftly brought down to Earth the moment you speak to her. Our paths crossed in a mastermind last year when she reached out privately to deliver some of the most detailed, and profoundly insightful feedback I had ever received. From that moment, I knew we were meant to collaborate in some capacity. Luckily, she felt the same.
I take pride in being a coach who continually invests in her own evolution at the same level (or higher) that I ask of my clients. Coaches are human, and humans have blind spots. Klara was a perfect mirror at a time when my own blind spots were keeping me from my next level. Her systems-oriented approach was similar enough to mine that we gelled, but different enough that it enriched my process. We have since become close personal and professional allies, and I’m so excited to have her as my first guest on SpaceUnknown!
We cover:
Our mutual fascination with systems
Reflections on the intersection of systems-thinking and relational intelligence
The clarifying system she created: Name Patterns
Designing upgraded systems that support our goals
The shit-show that is contemporary pop-spirituality
Read our conversation below the fold!
ANTONIA
Hello! I’m so excited to deep dive into our mutual obsession: systems. Especially since our philosophies have so much overlap, yet are uniquely expressed by each of us in our client work. I’d love to start by asking: how do you understand systems? And how does that understanding shape your approach to life and work? A casual massive question!
KLARA
I’ll keep it as simple as I can! My understanding of systems comes from recognizing the connections between their many constituent parts—how these parts interact, relate, and behave together. These connections are not obvious at first, but they reveal themselves to those who want to see them. And if the connections are difficult to see, the system’s purpose is even more elusive. Observing behavior over time is always the key. That’s what we were doing with you when we were working together. It’s so illuminating to observe and analyze one’s behavioral patterns, isn’t it?
I’ve always been a systems thinker, even as a kid. I understood early on that there’s no such thing as an individual operating outside of a system. We are all like fish swimming in various systems, often unaware of how they influence our behavior. Complex systems exist within each of us—our body, our psyche. We’re part of a family, society, and culture, and all these systems are interconnected.
My life’s work and purpose within the systems I’m a part of is to understand them, innovate existing ones, and dare to design new ones.
What’s your fascination with systems about?
ANTONIA
Mmm, so many great points to unpack in your answer! But I’ll start by answering your question. Three main things fascinate me about systems:
First, learning about any part of a system, no matter how small, provides clues about the entire universe—because the universe is made up of systems within systems, all influencing and interacting with one another.
Second, changing how any two parts of a system interact can dramatically alter the entire system. For example… shifting a recurring dynamic in your friendships can create a profound ripple effect in every other sphere of your life, from career, to nutrition, to your hobbies.
Third, systems literacy is fundamentally about relational intelligence, as all systems are defined by how their parts relate. Understanding this gives us the keys not only to our personal, relational, and professional evolution, but also to the evolution of our whole species.
While it may seem like I'm just helping people reach their goals, my true aim is the evolution of humanity toward greater harmony with itself and the systems it's part of. It's important to me that the way my clients pursue their goals also supports them to become the most actualized versions of themselves—people who can create and embody new systems that support all life on Earth, especially as the fragile, fear-based systems we currently rely on inevitably collapse.
You talked about how observing behaviour over time provides clues to the structure of a system. What does that look like in the context of the work you do with clients? How do you use that data to help them? Also, how can our readers start collecting and using their own data? Feel free to use me as an example!
“You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems.”
JAMES CLEAR
KLARA
I absolutely adore your perspective on systems. That’s why it was such a lovely experience for us to collaborate. Honestly, the flow we had was just… delightful is the word!
To answer your question, I never do the same thing with any of my collaborators. But what I use with everyone is a phonetic numerology system called “Name Patterns”. It’s a clarifying tool I designed, which helps me recognize the patterns a specific human being is looping in their unconscious. There are 22 main patterns we all play with (there are infinitely more, but they’re all variations of these 22 main ones).
Fun fact: We both loop a pattern 11, which is a pattern of systems. Not everyone has it in their energy field in such a dominant way… that’s why not everyone is so fascinated with systems.
So, analyzing your unique Name Patterns, I was intuitively guided to be very organized, granular, and analytical with you. I understood from your energy that you’re extremely intelligent and intellectual, and I knew that you’d respond well to a specific combination of feminine and masculine care: a lot of attention and clear structures. We were observing and analyzing your daily behavior—how the activities of your choosing in a specific sequence throughout your day made your body feel, and how you were moving throughout your days because of these decisions. Was it energizing? Was it draining? We collected a lot of data, so you could start making decisions that are even more aligned with who you’re consciously evolving into.
To sum it up, we did conscious day design together. The aim of this is to enjoy your days, and ultimately your life, as much as possible. This is available to anyone, really, but it’s definitely more fun to do it together with someone else, because we don’t see our blind spots!
What stands out for you from our collaboration the most? What is it that you took from it that has transformed you forever? What I took from it: there is such a thing as ‘an ideal collaborator’. Since our connection, I’ve co-created only such high-calibre collaborative experiences.
ANTONIA
I felt exactly the same way about our collaboration! Reciprocal, mutually fulfilling growth partnerships like ours are so energizing, it feels nonsensical to settle for less.
I also want to note that we succeeded–our design project worked. Before collaborating, I struggled to get this newsletter out consistently. By the end, I was publishing 4-5 newsletters per month. I’ve kept it up ever since! You were also an absolute saint while I texted you like fifty Substack name ideas per week. It was worth the effort though, because SpaceUnknown has truly come to feel like a creative home.
As for transformative insights… a few stand out.
One: The power of tracking data with literally anything other than my head will solve 80% of my problems. A weakness of mine is spending way too long thinking I can mentally work through logistical challenges that really need to be worked through on paper or on a screen. When you busted out the spreadsheets at the beginning of our work together, I was like “fuck–she got me.” You could not have targeted my Achilles heel any more precisely! You’ll be pleased to know I’m still using them.
Two: There was something healing about exploring my Name Patterns. With my childhood background of spiritual abuse and cult-y new age bullshit, I tend to hold a lot of things like numerology at arms length. At the same time, I have this profound sense of spirituality that differentiates little between aesthetic, ecological, philosophical, psychological, and mathematical approaches to reality. Your grounded, undogmatic approach deeply resonated with me and played a significant role in my ongoing journey to reclaim my spiritual identity. The key was that you didn’t treat that system as your authority, nor did you try to convince me to do so. It was a relief to know that was an ethical principle we both shared. It meant we could just let loose and play.
KLARA
Honestly, knowing that you still use spreadsheets to redesign whatever you need elates me!
And I’m so glad that you made the choice to integrate your unique perception and expression of spirituality back into your reality.
Let’s be frank, it’s wild out there. People are going nuts in too many spiritual circles. I’d know because I was a part of them during Covid, and that’s why I don’t go there anymore. Spiritual tools can be used or misused, as is the case with all existing tools.
I play with Name Patterns, but I don’t rely on it. I find it really useful, but I can easily and enjoyably live without it.
I feel the most divine in moments when I feel bored, not when I use sophisticated spiritual tools. Let’s do a podcast soon about how to find God in the most boring moments, please!
ANTONIA
I will say… the whole spiritual identity reclamation thing is still very much a work in progress for me. I’ve been wanting to do a Substack post about it for a while now. It was a big theme during my time in Peru that has continued to unravel in new and unexpected ways throughout my ongoing integration process. It’s complex. There are many layers. When it’s ready, I’ll probably have to publish it in parts.
And, right—I’ve also witnessed one too many of those breakdowns in spiritual circles. My own mother was part of that fallout. I narrowly escaped. Most spiritual frameworks seem to require a baseline of psychological stability and social support to be useful—conditions those frameworks were built on—but in our fragmented culture, those foundations are often missing. It doesn’t help that so many of these frameworks are being marketed to the psychologically vulnerable as a solution to their pain. Most Westerners usually need to establish that solid foundation in therapy first—which can take years. Like, soz, but Eckhart Tolle’s A New Earth and a trip to Bali ain’t enough to heal your C-PTSD bebs—I don’t make the rules!
Based on how wild people went for the bypassing graphic I created two years ago, it’s clear many folks feel the same way we do about the shit-show that is contemporary pop-spirituality. So yes—I’d love to do a podcast deep dive with you. Let’s get something in the books!
Connect with Klara via her:
That's all for this week!
Stay curious :)
— Antonia
And when you're ready for the next step…
1. Learn more about 1:1 coaching, and apply for a complimentary, commitment-free discovery session with me here.
3. Up-level your self-regulation and mindfulness skills with Open Studios—an app that looks, and feels, like riding in a sexy wellness spaceship.